[personal profile] cosmolinguist
I am so relieved England lost their men's football World Cup semi-final.

It's not like how I'm glad when I tease my friends about England men doing badly at cricket (I manage to be from a country that doesn't even really play cricket and I still fail the Tebbit Test). It's a totally different thing. I was really dreading an England win tonight, because them getting into the World Cup final, win or lose, would be bad on every level.

Because English football breeds violence and jingoism and there's already far too much of those. There's already too much exceptionalism in how England (Britain, but mostly England) thinks about itself. Brexit couldn't have happened without it.

Still I do think of those domestic violence stats I've seen all over social media; maybe you have too. A 38% rise when England lose. But 26% when they win. I'm sorry for the people who had a horrible night. I hope they don't have to dread the men's football World Cup final so much now.

Every friend of mine who shared that poster or made any similar post on Facebook had one guy in the comments complaining about it. One even said it was racist against the English, despite many people pointing out that a campaign made in England pointing out English statistics to an English audience is going to focus on England (and of course it's not possible to be racist against England but I didn't even go into that; this is telling for how white people think about racism though, we generally treat it like it's just a mean word to call somebody).

Most complainers didn't go as far as bleating they were victims of racism but they were all "not all football fans"ing. So eventually I got fed up and wrote this in one of the sets of Facebook comments (modified a little now to add stuff I wanted to mention but forgot):
I think the defensiveness of football fans needs addressing too. The fragility.

I hope the way that some react to statistics like these domestic violence ones indicate that they understand how serious and bad this is. But mostly they're just quick to distance themselves from it.

And I think they do that because they fail to appreciate that their experience as fans is very different from that of non-fans."I've been going to games for umpteen years," great, but that means you don't know what happens to people just trying to exist in a city centre, walk anywhere or cycle or use public transport, while football is going on. That means you're not a target in the way we are.

That means you probably don't know my friends and I have to warn each other about derby days, World Cup games and other big matches, so we know to avoid going into town. When I worked at a hospital, the results of Manchester derby games had to be part of the handover because they had such an impact on people's mental state, and how much fighting we could expect.

None of that happens for rugby or cricket matches or even women's football, just men's football.

Football fans are an in-group who doesn't believe how different the out-group's experience is, and I wish there was some way to get that across to them.
I'm just not interested in listening to football fans about this. I think they should listen to my friends and me. We all have stories: pushed off their bikes, punched in the guts on the way home for work for not looking sufficiently happy after some big win over Argentina, Andrew constantly having his beard grabbed and once being prevented from getting off a tram at the stop he wanted and then shoved off at the next one, I was bodyslammed into a wall while getting off a train and had such a panic attack James nearly missed his last train home to look after me.

Yes I know there's more to football than public drunkenness and violence and entitlement and bigotry but I'm sick of having to argue with people who don't understand that those things have become entangled with football in England, so I'm glad England lost.

(no subject)

Date: 2018-07-12 05:00 am (UTC)
lilysea: Serious (Oracle: thoughful)
From: [personal profile] lilysea
My experiences in Australia aren't anywhere near that bad, but I used to be part of a Disabled women's group that met once a month in [suburb].

[Suburb] also hosts big weekly football games against other suburban and state teams every Saturday/Sunday during the season.

The Disabled women in the group (including me) dreaded football game days because while normal crowds (Farmer's market, Saturday morning grocery shopping) could be more or less navigated around,

the football crowds were aggro, entitled men who liked to walk down the footpath four or five abreast,

and who would get verbally abusive/threatening if asked to make room for a wheelchair user.

(no subject)

Date: 2018-07-12 05:07 am (UTC)
lilysea: Serious (Oracle: thoughful)
From: [personal profile] lilysea
I've also (again, much less bad than your experiences) had an entire train station platform / train carriage of people wearing blue-and-gold for team E, scowl/glare at me for the whole train ride in a very aggressive manner because I just happened to be wearing purple, which happens to be the colour for team D.

I don't follow sport, it's just that most of my clothes are purple.

In [my city] it's not possible to avoid leaving the house every single game day, because every Saturday/Sunday (and some Fridays) for Autumn/Winter is game day -

the football season runs from Saturday, March 10 until Saturday, August 25.

(no subject)

Date: 2018-07-12 05:47 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] ewt
Me too.

An England win would have made the Brexiteers even more insufferable.

(no subject)

Date: 2018-07-12 01:40 pm (UTC)
bunnypip: (Default)
From: [personal profile] bunnypip
I am relieved that I can stop being told by people on social media that I am mean to football fans by saying 'sportball' or 'kickball'. I'll call it whatever I damn well like. It is a huge, normalised, multi-million pound industry, with all the might of patriarchy and hypermasculine aggression behind it and it can bloody well cope with a 5'2" bespectacled woman with a dodgy skeleton calling it sportball.

When I wrote something on FB last night someone commented and said 'I feel like that about church services'. But my first husband never came home from church drunk and aggressive (this is only because he never went to church - he was drunk and aggressive most of the time. He'll tell you so himself) But he was extra drunk and extra aggressive, and sometimes violent, after football. This was apparently 'normal' and just being 'a bloke' and I should count myself lucky he wasn't like he used to be when he got into fights about football all the time or that time he ripped his mother's banisters down because he disagreed with a referee's decision in a Liverpool match.

So I am glad I don't have to have anyone preach at me for a while about how mean I am being to the poor football fan-men. And, sadly, I am really really glad I don't have to keep scrolling past those stats.

(sorry for ranting on your journal)

(no subject)

Date: 2018-07-12 04:31 pm (UTC)
silveradept: A head shot of Firefox-ko, a kitsune representation of Mozilla's browser, with a stern, taking-no-crap look on her face. (Firefox-ko)
From: [personal profile] silveradept
Hooligans, I think, is the warranted definition here, if we want to be polite. And a lot of other things if we aren't.

I do recognize those attitudes and their consequences, though. We used to make fun of the riots in a neighboring college town that as the joke went, would happen whether they won or lost, but that was probably terrifying for the people who were there to have roving bands of people looking for something to take their energy out on.

(no subject)

Date: 2018-07-12 09:51 pm (UTC)
jesse_the_k: BBC Sherlock enters 221B with harpoon, covered in blood (SH tedious harpoon)
From: [personal profile] jesse_the_k
You put it so well I have to quote it back to you

When I worked at a hospital, the results of Manchester derby games had to be part of the handover because they had such an impact on people's mental state, and how much fighting we could expect.


That takes my breath away. It's awful! How can entertainment include that much violence? /rhetorical question

(no subject)

Date: 2018-07-13 02:50 pm (UTC)
worlds_of_smoke: A picture of a brilliantly colored waterfall cascading into a river (Default)
From: [personal profile] worlds_of_smoke
I really don't understand why people are so passionate about sports. I mean, I like them sometimes, but come on. Your manhood isn't tied to whether your team wins or loses.
Edited (wording things better) Date: 2018-07-13 03:58 pm (UTC)

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